Peter Lee and Ros Ashby until recently worked in teacher education at the Institute of Education, London. Peter began his teaching career at Latymer Upper School in London, but was soon after 'poached' for the Institute by Hedley Burston, who headed up the History Department. Peter recalls his work in teacher education in the 1960s with a team of history educators who were searching for new ways of conceptualising and thus teaching the subject. The influence of child psychology was being felt and Peter became interested in ways of developing children's thinking in history. Ros Ashby developed her research approach out of her own history teaching in Essex comprehensive schools. By analysing video-recordings of her pupils' discussions about historical questions, she developed ideas about the process by which they arrived at an understanding of history. Peter and Ros collaborated on research in the CHATA project in the 1970s and 80s and published work on children's historical thinking. Peter and Ros champion the importance of historical knowledge, though it must be produced from rational thinking rather than simplistic approaches. Given the demands on teachers today, it is not surprising that this is difficult to achieve. Interviewed by Nicola Sheldon